Several of you audibly agreed with this sentiment, and I am betting that more of you agreed silently.
I agree that in the real world--the everyday drudgery of life--blue is often just blue. As Freud is often misattributed as saying, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
But Bailey is not discussing the real world; he is discussing a high-production music video created by a host of creative professionals including musicians, directors, costume designers, etc. Moreover, he is discussing a music video that is highly stylized, cryptic, and affective. Of course it "looks cool;" being cool is important. Still, I think that there is more going on here. Everything we see, hear, and feel was done with purpose to create a specific art object that says something about the world.
As an aside keep in mind that when I grade your blog posts I assume everything you write was done intentionally and with purpose. How might you feel if I didn't?
Of course, we cannot chalk everything up to intention--how many times have you written something in your blogs that me or a classmate misinterpreted? Your intention did not matter as much as what was actually written on the page. If we can't just judge by intention, we need to look at the art object, itself to try and make sense of it. We are not asking "what does it mean?" or 'What is it trying to say?" Those are insulting question, as if the art object is incapable of meaning or saying without our analysis. Instead, we are asking what we can learn about the world and the artists' perceptions of it from examining what they made. The tools we have for making sense of these things are philosophy, history, cultural context, genre, author biography, and our own abilities to reason and feel. Bailey uses all of these in his attempt to understand "No Church in the Wild."
Let's watch the video and consider if we think this art object says something about the world or Kanye West's perception of it. Let's consider if it is worth our time to analyze the stylized and cryptic images and lyrics to learn something new. Let's consider if reading Bailey's analysis, whether we agree with it or not, helps us to engage the work. Let's ask ourselves what we can learn from engaging with a serious work of art seriously.Watch the video and respond to the prompt. You don't have to answer all the questions, I just want to know what you are thinking about these issues broadly. Be honest, there is no fun or learning to be had from inauthentic engagement.
Don't agree with Marshall. I think whether something was intentional or not, it's readable. Sometimes a certain decision is made that represents a passive belief, maybe a decision made based on an ingrained belief or aesthetic appeal that isn't thought out to that internal degree. So we couldn't almost read any art object or decision in regards to just that. But when it comes to this video specifically, I think these things are intentional. High paid productions have people working to make them worth and represent what the brand is. The brand in this case is something along the lines of Kanye West not being a shallow artist and always having some level of background meaning and a specific artisanal quality. (Reading the video, or videos in general, somewhere around constructivism and subjectivism.)
ReplyDeleteI feel that this video is highly stylized to evoke certain emotions and reference current attitudes towards police, riots, etc. Lots of times blue is blue, but Kanye doesn't do anything accidental I feel like he always wants a reaction and most of the time has a purpose behind his work. I think the analysis did help to put this music video into perspective.
ReplyDeleteThis art object does say something deeper than just its presence seems but I still don't think it's worth close reading further because it gets the point across. It represents the start of the feud but that could mean anything in the context of the real world.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that any of the themes or visuals in this music video were unintentional. When you look at the video in conjunction with the lyrics, it is obviously West's interpretation of a world that is run by both religion but ironically at the same time, a decay in moral standing and faith. Even without analyzing the video deeply, there are symbols everywhere, from the police being on horseback to the Greek statues, that can't be denounced as just being there. I think Bailey is correct in thinking that the video is a representation of both Apollo and Dioyneses because the video is both aesthetically pleasing, but retains a deeper meaning that must be analyzed as well.
ReplyDeleteI think it would be extremely ignorant to ignore that fact that this video is replicating exactly what is going on between the people and the police in modern times. It perfectly demonstrates both a mob mentality and an us vs. them mentality. I believe that by depicting such a scene with this song Kanye is showing viewers what he think it would be like to be part of such a rebellious gang. In no way do I think he is trying to make it seem "cool" to be going against the police because people on his side are shown being beaten and sprayed with pepper spray; however, I do think it creates this idea of rebellion being sort of a necessity. In response to Bailey, I think that some of it was far fetched. I do think that it is still necessary to look further into works and see what other knowledge or ideas lie beneath the surface meaning.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Marshall, to a sense. I believe it greatly depends on the artist and the context of the music. If you told me that Kanye West's other famous song "Famous" had any relevant meaning to the world I would laugh at you, however, in this song in particular, I believe that it can have a different meaning. Obviously it is talking about a hierarchy and the monogamous piety that Christians hold to a single love for God but is then turned hypocritical as (except for nuns and monks) most Christians get married and have another love in their life- if not a person then something. In the sense that I agree with Marshall goes back to the context, this is Kanye West. I'm not saying West is an idiot, but I am saying I think it is elitist and a moot point to think that Bailey's meaning is relevant to this song. Kanye just made a dope song for a movie that could have a deeper meaning but not earth-shattering.
ReplyDeleteBailey's analysis is useful because she picked apart the elements of the video and gave them background. Understanding the molotov cocktail gave a different meaning to the video because the crowd went from a random riot with no real motive to a more meaningful riot fighting oppression. The police vs rioters shows the Apollonian vs Dionysian view that bailey discussed with the rioters being Dionysian and the police Apollonian. It is worth to analyze an art piece because taking it at face value you miss a lot of meaning and value of the art.
ReplyDeleteI think one thing that this video and bailey's work and the lyrics of the songs argue that civilization and morality are not natural. That humans were never meant to be who we are today. What is natural wins in the video. People are naturally Dionysian and I think that's what can be drawn from the video. Law and Order are inventions of humans that go against the very nature of humans and thats why society as a whole can never seem to be tamed.
ReplyDeleteBy watching this video, I definitely believe that this says something about the world. Kanye is showing that there is an obvious rebellion going on between authority and the common man. I think that Bailey had a point when it was said that this is a video based on purely Dionysian thought because almost all of the video was bleak and saddening. The one part that makes me think that this is more than just Dionysian is when the albino-ish boy looks up to the sky like he is searching for hope. This gives me an idea that this video is not just purely Dionysian. The theme of church, God, and scripture are frequently used in the lyrics of this song, and it is personified in the statues and certain settings in the video. This video shows riots similar to that of Ferguson that also point to the Dionysian view of this song.
ReplyDeleteIt's worth our time to analyze this video. This video touches on a couple of different ideologies. Racism and Capitalism are the major ones. Bailey's analysis is useful because it connects the video to older concepts made by romans. Bailey talks about watching this video without sound. The video without sound enhances the ideology more. We see the divide between police and people.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Baily's argument, because usually an artist does not just do something without meaning. A picture, song, or painting has a backstory and is a glimpse into what the artist believes. Kayne and Jay-Z had reasons behind the comparison of the cops and the 'rebels'. the lyrics talk about a hierarchy in civilizations, from the everyday person to the divinity of that culture. All while there are statues of Greek gods and heroes, while there are lyrics talking about Greek poets. There is a deeper meaning behind all these symbols and lyrics that speaks to the listener.
ReplyDeleteIn keeping with Nietzsche's argument that one must strike a balance between the Dionysian and the Apollonian, we must both listen to music purely as a form of enjoyment and engage the music analytically in equal amounts. If we did not engage with music in any meaningful sense and simply listened as a form of enjoyment, it would be a disservice to the artist by treating their work as trivial, and we would lose any potential understanding that we could gain from the music. Likewise, ignoring the entertainment value of music would erase the distinction music has as a platform to engage large masses of individuals. It is the combination of these parts, and only this combinations that makes music a distinct art form.
ReplyDeleteThis music video has a strong message about Kanye's perception of the world. With his video, he is stating that the entire world is wild and we are living in the midst of it. He uses the controversial issue of police brutality to express his argument within the video. He shows the apollonian view of the police versus the dionysion view of the protestors fighting against each other. Later in the video, he shows the protestors holding up green lights to symbolize hope. It is worth our time to analyze the video and learn different views. Though it's hard to take Kanye West seriously, it is evident that he purposely put symbolism in this video. We can learn different perspectives of the world by taking this work seriously because it displays controversial issues that require attention.
ReplyDeleteLooking at the video, with a close reading the argument is heavily based of the music video itself. I can see kanye is talking to the "people" the common citizen, that they can stand up against the man or the government. The video easily depicts this but it can also be heard in the lyrics. When Jay-Z comes in he talks about the tears on the mausoleum floors, meaning the large government buildings and the people in them are concerned. The video has a heavy Dionysian tone, playing to the emotions. To me when i see the video i think of Baltimore or Charlotte with their riots. The lyrics seem to sway back and forth between Dionysian and Apollonian. Talking about what is a god and his rules if you dont believe in the god. With the Apollonian stance he talks about there are things that the preacher doesnt have to preach it is just reality. It seems that somethings that we write can be misinterpreted, but when kayne mixed the lyrics with the dynamic video it seemed to straighten out what he was trying to get across.
ReplyDeleteEnglish 102: Drag Marshall Edition
ReplyDeleteWhen we look at this song, and for me, this entire genre seriously, I see the serious argument against religion. I visually see a riot. A struggle against black men and police. The black guys are the bad guys, even though I can tell that they are fighting for something. they aren't rioting just to riot. It seems like a rebellion of non-believers against believers of Christians. I think this brings up Chirstians trying to force their beliefs unto non-believers. But as the lyric "What's a God to a non-believer?" says, you can't hold people who have different beliefs to the same moral standard as your own. About Bailey's argument, I don't personally see the struggle about the racial divide or whatever, I see more of a fight on religion than a fight between two different races. I totally see where he is coming from with the cocktail and the black man. but even when I take this seriously, I personally don't take away "wow black people are very violent". But I can see where he is coming from with the argument. I also enjoy elephants.
Good response, but I will point out that Bailey is not arguing that black people are violent. Rather he is demonstrating the ways in which black bodies are read, often subconsciously, as more dangerous than white bodies because of the colonialist ideologies that still entrench our thinking. Perhaps another way to think about this is in terms of implicit bias, the ways in which people judge others without realizing it. These implicit biases may be natural, but Bailey, and many many others, believe they stem from centuries of work that portrayed black bodies as less civilized, more violent, and more sexual than white bodies in order to justify colonialist practices.
DeleteI think that this art object is worth looking at in depth. The statues are kind of an interesting object in the video, tall white stone monuments that never move or fall apart. The riots are something that i think is a commentary on how the world is as a whole in recent times. The people are unhappy, and they want those in power to know why. "Whats a mob to a king? Whats a king to a God? Whats a God to a nonbeliever?" a powerful statement made in attempt to reason with the uncertainty of the world. It gives a pseudo-explanation to why the world is in upheaval, the people don't accept the power.
ReplyDeleteClose analysis of this music video brings a whole new power to the work, there is so much more that Kanye, Jay Z, and Frank Ocean meant by this than a simple middle finger to the police. It's important to find value where it is shown, and it would be barbaric to simply disregard it because of personal bias against non-necessary deep thought. Most art is made to fit a purpose, and although some are about making money, the ones that last try to start a conversation about the society they exist in. Down to the four-legged stumbling of an african american man beside the police man on the horse, this is an unapologetic commentary on racism, police violence, and the human body as a sculpture piece (the people being beaten with the shirts pushed up to reveal the torso, pan to the sculptures of people in positions of agony).
ReplyDeleteHonestly I'm a little biased for this particular video. Big Kanye fan. I feel like most of the time when people make arguments like this for various symbolic things it's normally bs. I do think philosophy is useful but sometimes it can be a bit much. For example I swear half the words used in the argument I don't even understand. Bailey trys too hard to come off as smart. I do like he has to say about the clash of the two types of philosophy or whatever they are to make art. I think Kanye is a genius and definitely would use a music video to discuss something about the world. I enjoy close-readings of stuff that actually has meaning and isn't overly complicated. The Bailey's piece we read was kinda over the top. I enjoy what it had to say but I think it could've been more simple. If i were to watch this music video before reading about it I could probably come up with some meaning for it but nothing great or super in-depth. I don't even know if I answered this correctly but basically I think Kanye is awesome.
ReplyDeleteNo Church in the Wild isnt just a music video made for entertainment. This is a very pointed argument from Kanye, a black man, about the struggle between them and the police as he sees it. This was meant to leave the listener with some kind of response. When you watch this video, there is an idea that we can learn both sides of this conflict.
ReplyDeleteI think music videos and art objects like this one are not only worthy of further inspection, but they ask for it. Kanye and the others involved in this added so much that can fly by without notice, but when you expand on them, it suddenly can mean so much more than it seems on the surface level. There are also many levels of inspection that you can get into. And in my opinion, art is art when it can be interpreted in a lot of ways.
This article says a lot about both the world, and Kanye's perspective about it. Bailey's argument gives us an outside-the-ox vantage point on the deeper meaning on what is being shown in the video for "No Church in the Wild". While it is clear that there is a deeper meaning along the line of rebellion with the Molotovs, but Bailey makes the claim that the black male body "poses just as much of a threat". I think its a very closed-minded to think that an "elephant is an elephant" from the very start. It could very possibly be just an elephant, but in such a politically charged video, with a chained up elephant, which happens to be the mascot of the current party in office, you have to be able to at least entertain the thought.
ReplyDeleteHmmm. I'm really torn on this prompt. In high school, I spent two years closely reading, analyzing, and dissecting works. At the time, I thought it was total over-kill and it just ruined everything for me. I don't know why the author decided to spell someone's name that way; maybe he just felt like it. Having said that, as I have gotten a little older, I've gotten into the bad habit of psychoanalyzing everyone and everything. You heard it here first, I'm the queen of overthinking. This is where I think over analyzing is cool. Perhaps it was intentional, perhaps it wasn't. Either way, it comes from somewhere. Everything has a purpose and a meaning. Whether someone meant to attach a meaning or symbol to something, its still there. You can control what you deal out but you can't control how people interpret it. Keeping all of that in mind, there is a lot to learn from analyzing and engaging with this video. Not necessarily to just understand why Kanye made it. Divulging into it is basically just repeatedly asking, "but why" until you get answers to questions you didn't even know you were asking. Bailey uses a lot of beneficial tools in order to fully engage with the work (i.e., philosophical ideas, history, cultural context, etc.). All of these factors affect an artist's work whether it be consciously or unconsciously.
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